CHARIS SHALOM

“I discovered that phrase “listen to His voice” in Deuteronomy 30:20 after asking God what I needed to study yesterday morning and believing that I heard Him direct me to Deuteronomy.

It was with great excitement that I noticed verse 20, because it seemed to confirm my belief in living by following God’s voice. That belief has been strengthened because I’m reading a book right now that claims the “main thing” for a Christian is to live a life of love, in direct opposition to living a life of judgment. -Riley

You have pack so much into this post it is hard to know where to begin so I just start with these two paragraphs.

First: What you need to be studying is the whole counsel of the word of God. It really does not matter your entry point.

Second: How do you know it was the voice of God and not your flesh? The flesh is an enemy with a mind of its own: “For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.” Notice there are three minds here each has its desires. What I am proposing here is the flesh is all too willing to lead you into spiritual things, and if it said go read such and such, how are you to discern between the two? Have you ever read that passage before. And even if you haven’t is the flesh something that you truly understand as to it powers. Is the flesh a spiritual thing, or is it bound by physicality? Could it be that it is more powerful than you recognize?

What is judgement? Does it require love to judge? Did Jesus say, judge righteous judgement? Interesting you should mention this (see I am not adverse to the working of the Spirit even between us living thousands of miles away and an Ocean inbetween). Our sermon this morning was delivered by a stand in. His text: Matthew 7:15, dig it, and just yesterday, I spent all day listening and relistening to Phil Johnson’s 02/24/08 sermon Jealousy, Judgement and Justice sermon: http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/philsermons.htm

It is a good listen.

One last question for you to ponder. Knowing that the Israelites could not possibly keep the Law, was the testimony that they testified against themselves a condemnation of their pridefilled flesh, their stone cold hearts upon which the Law was written? Should they not have said, we are unable, and like the tax collector in the temple, thrown themselves down before God and begged for mercy rather that agree to the “executioners” sentence of the Law?

I know this is the crux of the Team Pyro debate that you are having. One of the things that is missing in your appraisal of love is justice. Justice requires judgement. It also requires Jealousy, which is the love for things of God. Then it requires the defense of them and the death of all who oppose it. Sounds harsh. But, think, it was because of all this that God granted mercy when it came to calling you to salvation by grace through faith.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

TT says:

“First: What you need to be studying is the whole counsel of the word of God. It really does not matter your entry point.”

Thomas, I absolutely agree, but God clearly can direct us to specific passages. Can He not? And, as I state later, He won’t contradict Himself, meaning that one cannot read outside of the context of the entire counsel of God.

TT Says:

“Second: How do you know it was the voice of God and not your flesh? ”

This is a challenge for us all. How does anyone ever know? How can a pastor know what God’s word is for his congregation each week? How can a person know if they should go to college or where they should go? What career? Etc.?

That is a lifelong process, of learning to better know God’s will for our lives. And, yes, Romans 7 describes an incredibly difficult aspect of the war we face. Yet, even with that Paul knew where to go (and not go) on his journeys. And, the good news, is that once we are redeemed God gives us every spiritual blessing we need. Ephesians 1:3 and 2 Peter 1:3. Moreover, we are the good shepherd’s sheep and as such we know His voice. John 10:4. We are “hard wired,” one might say, to recognize our father’s voice! So, although the enemy will do everything to distract and confuse us, and sometimes he may succeed, God is bigger than the enemy and wants to speak to us more than we want to hear Him.

Moreover, we must always test the spirits. We must know God, his written revelation, and we can seek counsel of others for confirmation of the words we have heard.

As to your last points, Thomas, I think people at Teampyro are believing that I am forgetting justice, but I’m not. I’m emphasizing love over there because it appears that people have neglected it. God is so many binary truths that it is beyond our ability to understand. He is just and merciful. He is a consuming fire and living water. He is King and a friend. He is love to one and wrath to another. The list goes on and on. And, we all too often get caught up in emphasizing one to the detriment of the other.

Having said that, my question is this – is it our job ever to judge unbelievers? Ever.

Second, is it possible to make judgments about things or people in an unloving way?

I hope I can get to the links you provide soon. I’m sorry if I was slow finding your comment in my moderation box. I just found it this morning.

Yes- The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

Yes- So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

I don’t think that the people at Pyro lack love in their discernment. There is necessity to judge the words of men as well as their behavior. And, we must rightly judge ourselves. David’s plea is that God would serch him and judge him. The reason was so that God could justly judge David’s enemies. David definitely knew that the same charge that God had against them, he had against David.

We approach the world with words of judgement. It cannot be avoided. Our message is repent and believe. Our judgement, which is really not ours at all, is that they are condemned as sinners. The call to repent and believe is to cease being unbelievers. We also offer the promise of eternal life after, and not before the warning of eternal damnation for sin. To reverse it is to place salvation before repentance. To call to repentance is an act of love, and that requires the act of love which is the declaration of the truth that they are enemies of God and his people as David rightly understood.

It is when people come denying the truth that the response is the fury of the Lord. We are to be angry and sin not, with the world, and even more so, are we to judge the brethren.

Governments of men were establshed for the punishment of evil doers, not the keepers of the law. But, in that act of establishment God’s love expressed in justice and judgement, and that for the sole purpose of “wooing” them to the Lord by crushing pride. Mercifully, God provides faith, and the love of God and a new heart for rebels. For those not called the message is still the same for God is true and all men are liars.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

I believe that so much of the difficulty I had with the deconstruction of my words over at Pyro arose because we were speaking very different languages. Even though we all were speaking English, we have a different way of expressing ourselves. For example, I could speak YWAM-ese, with pet phrases and acronyms, and no one would capture their meaning as I meant them because they had never been unpacked for them. I say that because I definitely was misunderstood over there and people reacted, sometimes violently, to what I said without any understanding, making false claims about who I was and what I had said.

I also say that because although I am a very literate person I read your words above and really don’t understand what you are saying, even the first part where you are trying to answer my questions. And, I think you may have even misunderstood my second question, again because of linguistic issues.

As to the second question, what I meant to get at was the fact that judgments can be made in an unloving way, and if done in that way they are wrong. Period. That is the judgment that Christ proscribes. Anything done without love is vanity and error.

I agree that one day we will judge all things, but I think in the here and now we are to judge no one, at least not in an unloving way. Perhaps we are to judge believers, to the extent that we are to encourage them to repent and grow and learn and love, but with respect to unbelievers I think we simply love and encourage them to a saving knowledge of the truth. We accept them as flesh and love them as image bearers, praying for them and sharing and being the good news of Jesus.

Is your last paragraph saying that we are the keepers of the law? What do you mean by the phrase keepers of the law?

No, in this sense keepers of the law are just those who do what is right. Those governments then are not threat to them. Which is interesting, because it is obvious that “wrong” judgement will happen. What we must conclude then, is that it is the doers of the law, i.e. the word of righteousness, who are not under condemnation of it.

I try to make things clear, that is why I am so verbose. Try not to deconstruct anything, but I would have you search Scripture for the half dozen or so ways that “judge” is used. For nowtake if from me, that when ever you are preaching the word or expounding it in anyway you are judging your hearers, and yourself, as David well knew.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

I actually am searching the scriptures on the word judge. That is our place to start.

Of course, all of this is a great digression from the point of the post, a point about which I am still interested in your thoughts. I mean, seriously, if God cannot speak to us today but through the bible, then why do we preach – why not just read the bible out loud? Why would we pray? It surely cannot be simply to obey scriptures like 2 Thessalonians 5:17 can it?

Oops, i mean 1 Thess… typo. Or just thinking about being a new creation or something.

God does speak to us, most definitely. “Today if you hear his voice…” I trust that you did as I did.

I am an continuationist/cessationist. I do not hardline the operations of the Spirit as some do. I subject my knowledge to Scripture and find fault with both camps. I have often asked, “How does John MacArthur know he was called to the ministry.” See, he is a hard cessationist, but that line of reasoning fails to account for the knowledge that we have as believers, doesn’t it?

I have very serious reservations about certain claims made by anyone when the say, “God told me.” As I tried to explain, and you seem to understand, our only recourse is Scripture for discernment. Time will tell us of the rest. We pray for wisdom, and God grants it as he sees fit for us. The Word says so, so we seek and it is opened. Anyone acknowledging that then we can go to Scripture with to find out if these things are true.

And, I thought that I had answered you point in my long winded way. It does not matter if we have that small voice that says go here. You would not believe the times I have heard cessationist claim God’s leading and still deny it. What we do, is just go, if that is what you are willing to do, by faith. If you go you go, if you do not you do not, and leave the driving to God. He knows what he is doing in your life even when you question, “Lord what would you have me study.” The question we should be asking when we hear such a voice leading us, is “Do I trust God.” This of course assumes that what you are about to do is good.

You ask, “Why do we pray?” When Romans say you do not know how to pray, how then would you know by praying anyway? True prayer does not originate in us which accounts for why not all prayers are answered according to the words we pray. But, we know that God has also said that we should and that we should ask for those things which he has instructed us in. However, when it comes down to it 1 Corinthians 12 is still in effect. If it is love, it is done by the Spirit, for God has shed abroad in our hearts his love. He gives the gifts, and he operates them through us and that includes prayer. If by the Spirit it is true and without confusion, and we can have confidence that the things we ask will be done and work in us and for us for our good.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

Question: Given the fact you see there are many interpretations in the area of spiritual gifts and God’s voice today, does that mean you are willing to admit that there are areas of what you would call doctrine that aren’t clear or revealed fully yet?

No. All that we need to know has been revealed. There are numerous Scriptures that can be sited. That we as indivduals do not know is another story.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

So, there are no more “secret” things like it talks of in Deuteronomy 29:29 and we can know all things now? Or, we can know all God wants us to know, but there are still some things that He hasn’t revealed and won’t on this side of Heaven?

And what knowledge are we talking about? How do you define ginosko?

All that we need to know has been revealed… you missed this?

So, no, all the things that have been given we have been given to know.

Does that mean that God does not work in secret ways? Of course not, or you would never have been born again.

If you want to speak of knowledge you’ll have to be more specific. If it is all we need to know about doctrine and living, then it has been fully revealed in Christ. He is the end of all revelation, “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

What is it that you do not know? Do you need to know it? How do you get it? Are really the questions that need to be asked.

Try this Riley. If you trust in God, are the things that you do done in faith? And, if they are, do you trust him to orchestrate your life prior to your knowing what you need to know, such as where you need to study next? Not to say that you should not pray. But, whether you hear or not, are you trusting in him in spite of your assurance that what you are doing is his will? This is the true assurance of the faith. Not that you in and of yourself know, but that the Word of God is revealed in you by his Spirit, so that what ever you are doing it is by the Spirit that it is done, John 3.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God, and Phillipians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Do you believe that God is working all things, or just some things?

Work that out and get back to me.

Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Packer’s First Point « 2 Worlds Collide

I am not sure how anything I’ve said would indicate otherwise… but i believe God works in and through all things and He often reveals to me the reasons why He is doing things.

But, again, what is knowledge? And yes, doctrine is fully revealed in Jesus. So, how does that impact your theology of being a Jesus follower and doctrine?

Iam very happy with this great message.Only that i need you to come here in Kenya and share with ouir ministry plus the rest of the People.We will be having a gig meeting next Month so please ,this is time ti give meat in due season as our redeemer said in the book of Matt, chapter 24.We hopefuly look to hear fromyou.
Ev,
Steve.

For real life stories of people who have been encouraged by hearing the voice of God check out
http://www.godandemail.com
Blessings
~Mark

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