CHARIS SHALOM

Nice thoughts,
The scripture from Jude jumped off the page at me as well this week. I have no answers- seeking the spirit on this one.
Beth

A “word only” approach isn’t advocated in the Word, which teaches about the dynamic of the Holy Spirit.

There is a lot of personal security that comes from certainty. If you can limit your dealings with God down to just the doctrine that you can discern from an exclusively literal rendering of the scripture, you can eliminate a lot of personal anxiety about the depth of mystery associated with having a relationship with the Creator of the universe.

Something else that can be scary is the realization, upon going to a new spiritual height, of the difficulty of going back to where you used to be. Things are different on this side of an experience like that.

Lee, you are right on. An easy and lazy way of saying what you just said is that we are basically lazy and like to find easy answers. A black and white “word only” approach accomplishes that. Unfortunately, I believe it leaves out much of the richness of the Christ life.

In what way?

Debbie, help me… where is your question directed?

It was directed to the last part of your comment Bryan. I’m sorry I should have clarified.

Got it. What I meant was that we can know the letter of the law. We can read and study and gain head knowledge, but unless we are living by the Spirit, in the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, and in an intimate relationship with the Father, walking with Him as Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall, then the richness of that relationship with the Father will be missed. There is more to the Christ life than the letter of the law. David loved God’s law, but he still cried out to God “take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.”

Bryan,
It does seem contradictory that many of the “word only” people are also cessasionists. You have to wonder what they do with all those verses.

Your post reminded me of a quote from a book I just read, “Dreaming with God” by Bill Johnson:

“It’s difficult to get the same fruit as the early church when we value a book they didn’t have more than the Holy Spirit they did have.”

It is interesting to see more discussion on this topic. Brother Maynard has a link to a post by Dan Edelen with lots of discussion happening in the comments.

Thank you Bryan. That clarifies and I agree.

Good points. Seems like the Word only picture of being spiritual people is too polarized. Spirit and Word interact to produce community with God as Father, Son and Spirit. This being in community then turns into action in the world that can look much like the last two sentences in Jude.

Bryan –

I do not read v. 18-19 to be about believers, though I do agree Jude is talking to the believers.

v. 17 – talking to the believers reminding them of what the apostles taught

v. 18-19 – apostles taught that there would be some who were around believers that were mocking, following their own lusts, and not having the Spirit (not saved). I’m thinking of other passages of scripture where it talks about when Jesus comes and to some who always hung around Christians but weren’t actually believers and Jesus will say “I never knew you.” The idea of wolves in sheeps clothing so to speak. There are other verses about allowing the wheat and the chaff to grow together and they will be separated in the end. Sheeps from the goats. Many illustrations of this in the Bible.

v. 20 “But ye, beloved” – Saying, but you, believers — have faith the the Holy Ghost within you who indwells all believers

v. 21 – keep in the love of God

v. 22 – have compassion, make a difference

v. 23 – reach out to the lost

I’m not addressing the whole cessationist / non-cessationist argument because I haven’t really studied it, but I think for you to imply that those who have one point of view on one topic will more likely have a certain point of view on another topic is a broad generalization that may be creating a connection for the sake of argument alone.

I see the passage in Jude as an admonition to the believers reading it to not forget to love God and reach out to the lost around them. To not focus on their human lusts but to “pray in the Holy Ghost.” The Spirit was sent to us as intercessor when we know not what to pray. So this is the Spirit’s function.

Bryan – in some ways I wish we could have a verbal conversation on this at some point, but I think you are out of the country during convention time. You won’t be at the annual meeting will you? Because I really want to encourage you to know that my focus on God’s word as the source for knowledge about God and life is not limiting in any way. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He can do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants. Yet there are verses in the Bible that also say he is a God of order. He set up a certain way he was going to do things. I think it is rather an amazing concept to realize that everything we would need to survive in this life he put into his inspired “life instruction book” for us. The Holy Spirit teaches and brings all things to our remembrance … what does the Spirit teach and remind us of … the words of Jesus, Jesus … the Word, and the scriptures.

Again, I do not dispute that we have the Holy Spirit in us to comfort us, but the Bible also says “they Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” The Word illuminates, and I have just barely comprehended a little of it as yet. It will take a whole lifetime to dig into, and I could still not know all of it. The treasure of the Bible is deep and vast and full of mysteries. So I pray in the Spirit that he will teach me these things.

So for me, I again go back to the idea that if I began to realize that life is about glorifying God and focusing on what I know God has already said, and spending time just contemplating “Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength”, then I won’t be so hung up on all the stresses of life of “where should I live”, “where should I work”, “whom should I marry?” Those questions don’t get to the point I think … the questions should rather be: “Wherever you live … are you trying to reach the lost in your neighborhood?” “Wherever you work … are you a diligent worker … working as to the Lord rather than men?”, “Whomever you marry (be not unequally yoked) … is it someone that will encourage you and edify you in ministry and godliness?”

I’m just not sure that in every instance God will say “live in Fort Worth” and “work at such-and-such law office”. We may already have the answer in the Bible … to be the good Samaritan wherever life’s travels take us. Sure there are points in the Bible where God led people to a specific place, but for every one who had a specific place to go, there might have been many others that never were told exactly where to be but just expected to live a life of godliness where they found themselves from their birth.

In conclusion, focusing on the Bible for primary spiritual knowledge is not limiting, it is a vast and expansive resource that with the Spirit’s guidance is yet to be tapped to the fullest extent.

That last phrase should rather read – “resource that is yet to be tapped to the fullest extent in my life but with the Spirit’s guidance I hope to go deeper into its treasures.”

Sheep – singular and plural … whew I shouldn’t write comments this early in the morning.

I think most people would seperate the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts as two catergories.

HS allows for proof of salvation through the regeneration of the man. What we see in the “changed life” people live after salvation.

The verses you quoted create room for “PPL’s”.

“Creates room” – meaning to discuss “PPL’s” in SBC life.

The cessationist would agree that the HS is very active in our lives, in the maturing of “you” as a believer. The HS would lead “you” to desire believer’s baptism as an outward act of obedience to Jesus Christ our Lord because you read it in scripture.

In light of this post, John Piper wrote yesterday on hearing the voice of God. Not from a theological point of view, but rather God waking him at 5 a.m. and speaking to him. Very interesting.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2021_The_Morning_I_Heard_the_Voice_of_God/

Here’s what concerns me with the word-dominated side of the argument: in my lifetime in church (almost 42 years now) there has been a de-emphasis on the Spirit. The inerrancy debate has nearly convinced many that as long as you have a good translation, a good hermeneutic process and a sound, rational approach (”just get to the plain meaning of the text”) that we can figure it all out. I really do believe that much of the wrangling going on within the SBC today has this at its root. It is what leads us to codify our interpretations for both ourselves and for others. And for all practical purposes the Spirit becomes unnecessary (though obviously no one would dare say such a thing). Many give lip service to the Spirit, but in practice deny our dependence upon him.

Here is what concerns me with a Sprit-dominated perspective: Benny Hinn. The “Kansas City Prophets,” et. al. At times there seems to be no standard by which one can judge whether or not a “God told me…” statement really came from God or not. Many give lip service to the word, but in practice deny it. I remember being told once that I simply wouldn’t understand if I had not experienced it. It’s Bultmann for evangelicals.

Nevertheless, there are many things in life including particular circumstances for which we need to hear the voice of God. While I don’t believe that the kingdom of God rises or falls on the city in which I live or the school I attend and that God can work through us in various cities and universities, I still believe God often gives specific directions concerning those things. He didn’t tell Jonah to go wherever it pleased him. God was specifically sending him to Nineveh for a specific purpose. Similarly, he specifically prevented the apostle Paul from entering Bithynia and instead called him specifically to go into Macedonia.

Likewise, I believe God, in fact, does want me in Sapulpa, Oklahoma at this point in time in life. I believe he has specifically called me into pastoral ministry and that I am not a pastor simply because I am somehow “good at it.” I believe one of the specific things God has led our family to do is to be involved in foster parenting. And while I can find general principles in Scripture to guide me in these things I do not find specific verses telling me that the specific way I, Paul Littleton, must care for the orphans is to be a foster parent. I did not find specific verses telling me that I must leave Atoka, Oklahoma for Sapulpa, Oklahoma. Each of those things have been situations in which I must listen for the voice of the Spirit, pray, and trust as I go. God’s specific purposes for his world and his people in it did not come to an end at Revelation 22:21. God is still writing the chapters of Divine history, is still speaking into the specific circumstances of the lives of his people. Scripture shows us where God has taken his people and where he will take them in the future and invites us to become a part of the continuing story that is being played out in human history to the glory of God.

I believe it requires both a knowledge of his word, so that we know we are, indeed, on God’s path and not on one of our own making, and faith in and dependence upon the Spirit to speak into the particulars of our lives in 2007 and beyond. While that may scare some, because it is unpredictable, it is the way that God has consistently shown us throughout the Scriptures themselves. Nowhere in the Torah did Ezekiel find justification for lying naked in the streets or shaving half of his head. But he did find justification for those things in the voice of God and the leading of his Spirit. It may appear reckless at times, but as our friend Josh has reminded us: God is not bound.

It is interesting that many assume a focus on the word along with the Holy Spirit’s guidance is evidence of some fear of the Spirit. For the record, I am not afraid of the Spirit’s role in my life. I just read David Rogers’ comment on the prior post, and I can see how the believers that were illiterate or those who had little access to the Bible would still need guidance from the Spirit. I understand that.

I suppose I will just have to put it down to “in my own experience” I have not had God tell me go to a specific place. One time ten years ago, I thought he was telling me to move from Colorado to Texas to help start a church, but the church didn’t really “go”, and I think I was just running from some stuff in my life and trying to make it sound spiritual by saying “well, God told me to move, so I’m outta here.”

However, I have had the experience where once I got to a place, that I thought “here is exactly where I am supposed to be” with the confidence that could only be the Holy Spirit’s direction. That was the day I just happened to be looking for a new church to attend, drove around the streets near my house, and thought … well, I guess I’ll try that one. I attended the next Sunday … the church was Parkview Baptist Church, and I can barely imagine how I survived without that fellowship of believers up until then.

So, for me, I have found that the Spirit’s guidance (outside of the role of instruction in the scriptures) is more in affirmation or correction of where I am in my regular, daily human existence, rather than a specific call to “go to” or “do this”.

I would suggest reading Nathan Finn’s post for today and the link he has provided. It is sad that God speaking through us daily in his Word is passed by as if not as exciting. Yet it is the most exciting. I agree with Dorcas on the role of the Holy Spirit. In fact I would go further and say that the Holy Spirit prays for us when we pray wrong. In other words when we pray for something that is for our own purposes, the Holy Spirit steps in and says “Thy will be done.”

We must realize what being a Christian entails, what having the Holy Spirit in us entails and that we find out by the Holy Bible. I am not a cessationist, yet a healthy Biblical balance I believe is the key. Read John Piper’s article which is probably closest to my own view.

Sorry Alyce: I now see where you recommended the very same article.

I’ve been at CLE all day today and this is my first chance to view the discussion. One of the things that I pause at in what you’ve written Dorcas is that you say: “where should I live”, “where should I work”, “whom should I marry?” Those questions dont get to the point I think..”

I don’t disagree that there are bigger picture points that we must make our entire life about, like dying completely to ourselves, forsaking everything, and following Christ even unto death, BUT, I also know that God knows ever hair on my head, and He knows every aspect of my life, so I don’t know why I shouldn’t be asking HIm about what lay ahead. He will choose how He speaks to my prayers, but I also know that He says I have not because I ask not and that if I ask for wisdom, He will give it liberally.

Additionally, we are told to be filled with the Spirit. That too I believe is being told to Christians, who already have the Holy Spirit. What does this mean if it doesn’t mean something?

I haven’t gone to read Piper’s article, yet, but that sounds exciting. Desiring God was the book that really moved me down the path toward where I am today. And then I read Don’t Waste Your Life and, well, …

Bryan -

You always asked “but, why?” after every question your parents answered when you were a kid, didn’t you?

Okay, you said it was okay to admit ignorance here on occasion as a brave and daring act of honesty, so here goes … I don’t exactly know the difference between the concept of when the Holy Spirit indwells us at the moment of salvation and the phrase “be filled with the spirit.” Every post you write on the Holy Spirit leads to another one, such as your current question.

So I guess it is back to my Bible study to figure that one out now. If we aren’t careful, this iron sharpening iron concept of Christianity could really become in vogue.

Hmmm…. well, I just read the John Piper article… interesting… I don’t see why we have to bash either side… why do we feel so threatened that someone could hear the voice of God outside of the scriptures. The scriptures are amazing- but so is the God of the universe who lets us rest our head on his chest and know him as Abba. Is it so wrong to want to communicate even more intimately with our heavenly father through the spirit. Again- what if a person doesn’t have access to the scriptures. All we have to do is study the persecuted church today in places like China- where God spoke in many ways other than scripture.
I have some questions.
Is the Holy spirit only a counselor?
If we believe in the trinity, is the Holy spirit different from the spirit of Christ that indwells believers?
I hope I am not asking some heretical questions.
My husband has the M Div- in 8 weeks, not me.

If the early Christians did not believe that individuals could hear the voice of God outside of the scriptures, we would not have the New Testament, which is a product of spiritual revelation.

I believe the Spirit’s voice will be consistent with what God has already revealed about himself in the scriptures. The difficulty we have with that is that on the human side of things, we do not understand the scriptures fully or completely. What Paul said above is true, we have come to the point where we believe that a good, solid translation of the Bible and good, rational hermeneutics leads us to discern the “plain truth” of the scripture. The problems come when we think that our understanding of scripture is “what scripture clearly says.” I think there are times when we need to wait, and pray for the Spirit to teach us, before we draw a hard and fast conclusion that the interpretation of scripture that we, or our favorite author-preacher, has drawn is the absolutely correct way.

Lee: While I do not at all disagree with you, and I hope that all realize I do not agree with this view just because John Piper says it. I agree with it because I believe it to be scriptural, it seems that the Bible is being laid aside more than I am comfortable with. It all begins with the Bible does it not? I am not accusing here and if I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Not everything is in the Bible, but we have to be careful to want relationship more than experiences. That is the bottom line I think. A relationship with Christ is more important than a Holy Spirit experience. Who Christ is can be found in the Bible. I would much rather rely on that than experiences.

Debbie: Not quite sure how a relationship can be divided from experience or that reading the Bible is also not an experience.

Greg: Could you clarify your meaning?

Beth said: “The scriptures are amazing- but so is the God of the universe who lets us rest our head on his chest and know him as Abba.”

Beth, this statement troubles me unless I am comprehending it wrong. Usually when I read a but in a sentence such as this, it tells me not to pay much attention to the sentence before the but. In other words it is minimizing to me. The scriptures are where God speaks to us first and foremost. It’s also where we see the true God and not a God we think he is.

To clarify, the scriptures are amazing(period). They should be where we turn to verify any experience or before any experience.

How can we have a relationship with Christ and not have a Holy Spirit experience. No one has answered my trinity question either…
I’m sorry if you found my comment troublesome-
I was referring to when John rested his head on Jesus chest- and definately wasn’t down playing scripture.
I was trying to explain that we not only get to experience God’s love from the bible- His love letter.
But we experience it also through His spirit- it is a both/and, not an either/or.
Christ speaks to me through his word most of the time- however- I dare not limit him to speak to me in other ways such as in my “Spirit”, dreams and visions, other people”Prophecy”, or an audible voice.
Obviously, what we hear must line up with scripture. When we read the New Testament and Old- it is clear that God speaks to his people in many ways. Lets not limit him.

Paul-great comment.

Beth: Thank you for the clarification, and in many ways I agree. But it’s not limiting him when I do believe God will not go beyond scripture. Satan too is an angel of light, which is why I believe we have the Bible to seek him. I agree that a relationship is important in the way you have described, I just found your comment putting the scriptures behind what you have described and I am not sure that I agree. I believe John Piper said it better than I could, which is why I pointed to his article.

John Piper says this: “O how precious is the Bible. It is the very word of God. In it God speaks in the twenty-first century. This is the very voice of God. By this voice, he speaks with absolute truth and personal force. By this voice, he reveals his all-surpassing beauty. By this voice, he reveals the deepest secrets of our hearts. No voice anywhere anytime can reach as deep or lift as high or carry as far as the voice of God that we hear in the Bible.

It is a great wonder that God still speaks today through the Bible with greater force and greater glory and greater assurance and greater sweetness and greater hope and greater guidance and greater transforming power and greater Christ-exalting truth than can be heard through any voice in any human soul on the planet from outside the Bible. ”

I say: Amen.

Grace, that is a great quote about the book they didn’t have and the Spirit they did have! Fantastic.

Debbie, Is it going “beyond” scripture to have personal revelation that is not in scripture but also not contradictory (rather complementary to) of scripture? I don’t think it is. If God reveals to me personally that I am to go to England, while that is not in the Bible, I have no problem letting people know that God led me there. And, it doesn’t scare me at all to say that I’ve heard God speak. Am I ever wrong? Of course. I am wrong about nearly everything in my life, so I shouldn’t be surprised that sometimes I’m going to miss it when it comes to understanding the infinite nature of God, but that shouldn’t scare us away from walking by the Spirit, as that is very scriptural.

I don’t think this is minimizing to the Word at all. And, I do think craing a relationship is what it is all about. Just as Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden and just as Jesus taught us to pray that God’s kingdom would come and His will be done, I believe that a life of following Him is all about walking with Him, hand in hand, by faith in the Spirit.

I’ve been gone, obviously, most of the last 48 hours, and am just now reading through all of these comments even though I stole a glance last night while at a friend’s house… I noticed Spencer’s comment up above about the Jude verses potentially being supportive of PPL. I don’t think we should just let that go. While I don’t think it is clear evidence of PPL and may not at all be what the verse is referring to (praying in the Holy Spirit), it also doesn’t in any way suggest that there are no such things as PPLs.

So, Spencer, good comment and a genuine possibility.

Beth, your comments are good and interesting. We know that the HOly Spirit is God, the Spirit. We know that the Spirit is one person of the Trinity. And we know that the Holy Spirit is a counselor/helper/advocate. I really don’t know, though, how to answer your question other than to say it is a good question. I think we need to be asking questions rather than just resting with what we’ve been taught, Berean like. Testing the spirits, against the Word, and while praying in the Holy Spirit.

Greg, I agree with your question regarding relationship/experience. Great addition.

I agree with what John Piper has written as well, although I have not read the anonymous professor’s article and am not sure I would characterize it as Piper did. As I read Piper it is a both/and, not an either/or with regard to the voice of God, and we should be overwhelmed by both. God should always be. He is. And that is who God is in my life. Isn’t He amazing? I pray we never get over it!

Bryan: I do believe that God guides us to where we should be through the Holy Spirit. I believe he cares about where we live, every personal detail. It’s pretty easy to discover. If one wants to do something, and it doesn’t go beyond scripture. Do it, get it.

The Bible is our number one guide. I have learned a lot in my years of being a Christian. Am I still learning, yes. Till the day I die. But the Bible has been my life changer along with personal experience. Someday when I am comfortable with it, I will relay certain miraculous aspects of my life. Now however, it is just too personal. Between God and myself and expect for a few, God has not called me to tell it yet. They have to do with what you are talking about in a way. However, they always happened because I was so wounded, my spirit was dead at the time but I was seeking and it always concurred with what I had just read in scripture. Scripture is the final guide. The Bible is the God of the Universe talking. We must be careful to not go further than the Bible in experiences.

Our Sunday morning bulletin at FBC____ now has under “What We Value”, ” That the Bible is God’s Word and is without flaw or error.It is the final authority over our lives and only sound doctrine will be taught and tolerated.”

I am not as well versed in theology as most who post here and this is my first time to comment as I have only been reading blogs a short time.I feel that my church, of which I have been a member 35+ years, has moved away from me toward the SBC fundamentalism that is the topic of many of the current blogs.Most church members have no real understanding of what inerancy really means and have not read the 1978 Chicago Statement on inerancy and might not understand it if they did.

I believe the Holy Spirit of God is the final authority over our lives as we have to be guided by him to be able to understand what the bible is telling us.The common man didn’t have access to the bible as we know it for well over a thousand years into the CE.

The original autographs which no longer exist were God breathed but the bible as we refer to it today is still being interpreted by bible scholars as to what it really means in some areas.Does infallability mean everyone should get the same interpretation as to what the bible says to us about all things?

I am still trying to better understand a lot of theological issues even though I have been raised a Southern Baptist and I wonder if I will not be tolerated at my church much longer if I fail to conform to sound doctrine as determined by SBC fundamentalism.

Jerry

Thank you for commenting, Jerry. I really don’t know. I know that the very bible we have been taught to look to tells us that the letter kills but the spirit brings life. I know that I believe that the bible is a standard against which we can test the spirits and measure all things, but I also know that without the Spirit of God I cannot understand the bible at all. I also know from personal experience that God speaks in myriad ways. Most of all I just want to walk more closely with my Father.

As you seek, be careful not to let anger or pride guide you. In those things He will not be found.

Bryan, thanks for your swift replie, I didn’t expect it so quickly. The wise words at the end I will take to heart as I guess some frustration on my part came through even in the printed word.I may be becoming an old postmodernist.

We believe and accept many things about God we don’t understand and can’t comprehend in this plane of existance. I really can’t explain the word spirit or ghost as the King James would put it but we sure use it a lot in our theological concepts.

Thanks for the opportunity for me to learn and join in.

Jerry