CHARIS SHALOM

John 5.39-40 (The Message)

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.”

Stealing my thunder! Nicely said, David. I hope others will discuss this issue. I think all too often questions such as these aren’t even asked because typically the response is to shut them down and intimidate. And, as a result, people are also hesitant to talk about it.

Also, David, should it be important to our interpretation today to consider how the first readers and teachers considered the written words? I’m suggesting something more, or different at least, than just cultural context.

I have little to offer here in the way of comments, however I have a thought that I hope will continue, if not provoke both you and David to go a little deeper into these thoughts here.
That is: Jesus as logos and rahma. I know about logos and I believe rahma means grace/mercy.
I’m thinking rahma (which he is) could mean a more specific grace/revelation, for example when the gospel we see as logos becomes rahma to us, so that we might grab hold of it and become partakers of what Christ has for us by being born again.
Am I off base here?
In my study, prayer time with God-I look for pray for both, The Word of God to be alive to me and dwell in my heart. I knew Romans 12, read it for many years-2 years ago, I experienced it. Now, when I speak Romans 12-there is a power and life behind these words that was not there before.
David, Bryan-I hope this inspires you. I’m anxious to hear.

Alyce, having been raised Baptist and not having studied “rhema” personally as it is presented in the scripture I am unsure. When I have a moment, I would like to look into this.

I do love what you say about Romans 12. God keeps reminding me of this passage, actually stepping back into Romans 11, the basis of the “therefore” in 12:1. Notice 11:29, where it says the gifts of God are irrevocable. And then notice the richness of verses 33-36 of Romans 11. It will over power you in meditation thereon.

In just beginning my study, I note that the passage in Romans 10, which I vaguely recall being taught before, is that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the rhema of God (not the logos). Also, when Jesus said that we man lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Matthew writes rhema. OK, now I really want to dig in.

David, I’m sure you have already dug into this subject. Others, too. What say you to Alyce’s question?

Bryan and Alyce,

I’m not much of a Greek scholar, but I did find the following in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words…

“LOGOS denotes (1) the expression of thought–not the mere name of an object–(a) as embodying a conception or idea… (b) a saying or statement , (1) by God… (2) by Christ… In connection with (1) and (2) the phrase “the word of the Lord,” i.e., the revealed will of God (very frequent in the O.T.), is used of a direct revelation given by Christ, 1 Thess. 4:15; of the gospel, Acts 8:25; 13:49; 15:35, 36; 16:32; 19:10; 1 Thess. 1:8; 2 Thess. 3:1; in this respect it is the message from the Lord, delivered with His authority and made effective by His power… sometimes it is used as the sum of God’s utterances… (c) discourse, speech, of instruction, etc… doctrine…

RHEMA denotes that which is spoken, what is uttered in speech or writing; in the singular, a word… in the plural, speech, discourse… it is used of the gospel in Rom. 10:8 (twice) …. “the word of Christ” (i.e., the word which preaches Christ)… of a statement, command, instruction…

The significance of “rhema” (as distinct from “logos”) is exemplified in the injunction to take “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,” Eph. 6:17; here the reference is not to the whole Bible as such, but to the individual scripture which the Spirit brings to our remembrance for use in time of need, a prerequisite being the regular storing of the mind with Scripture.”

On the basis of this, I would say there is some degree of validity in what Alyce is saying, but I would be careful in stretching it too far.

The dangers to be avoided, as I understand it, are: 1) the teaching of neo-orthodoxy, which claims that the Scripture only becomes the Word of God for us when enlivened by the Spirit; and 2) the tendency to admit interpretations of Scripture, supposedly enlightened by the Holy Spirit, that do not do justice to sound hermeneutical principles and the grammatico-historical method of interpretation.

In any case, I think we are on sturdy ground to maintain that the help of the Holy Spirit in our lives is necessary to truly understand the Bible.

My Dad (Adrian Rogers) said: “The Bible is God’s love letter to His children. If you don’t understand it, it’s because you’re reading someone else’s mail.”

“In any case, I think we are on sturdy ground to maintain that the help of the Holy Spirit in our lives is necessary to truly understand the Bible.”

If I may interject, I believe this strongly. I like how David phrased this.

“The dangers to be avoided, as I understand it, are: 1) the teaching of neo-orthodoxy, which claims that the Scripture only becomes the Word of God for us when enlivened by the Spirit; and 2) the tendency to admit interpretations of Scripture, supposedly enlightened by the Holy Spirit, that do not do justice to sound hermeneutical principles and the grammatico-historical method of interpretation.”

I’m sorry, I meant to also include this.

Just understanding what Paul and John were doing puts it in perspective, at least it does for me.

The context of both John’s and Paul’s statements relates to proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah. John’s approach comes directly from the personal experience of having been one of his disciples. He listened, observed, believed and then, inspired by the Holy Spirit, he drew his conclusions from that source. Paul’s approach, after his conversion, was to reason from the scriptures. He used the “scripture” that existed in his day, which was the Old Testament, and showed how they pointed to Jesus as the Messiah.

“This is what we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, espressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, bu he himself is not subject to any man’s judgement:
For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?
But we have the mind of Christ.” I Corinthians 2:13-16.

Actually, I think that whole passage in 1 Cor. 2 about wisdom from the Spirit puts things in context. I think that goes with the passage from John 5. The scriptures which existed at the time, the Old Testament, did indeed point to Jesus, but it took the discernment and illumination of the Spirit to see this. The Spirit led those early Christians to keep the writings of the Apostles and early church leaders that pointed to this.

It’s a major interpretive statement. Reading and applying the “scriptures” verse by verse leads to what I call a “pseudo-Judaism.” The message of redemption becomes one of works. You must start with the “logos” and read the scripture as having been fulfilled in Christ to see what unfolds.

Is it possible that when the various letters and epistles write about the logos of God that they are simply referring to Jesus and not to the 66 books we call the bible? PLEASE remember this is just a question.

David, I do believe it is important to use sound interpretative methods, but, at the same time, are some “methods” of scripture interpretation more human than spiritual? Do we begin to use reason rather than faith and a dependency on the Holy Spirit if we “uber exegete”? (I don’t even know if I am using the word exegete correctly…)

I agree that David’s summation is a very good one for this subject. I also appreciate your honest questions. I know I have often thought about these things too and glad that someone else is opening up this “can of worms.”

One of the most helpful little 62-page booklets for me has been “God Guides” by Mary Geegh. It is sadly out of print, but the back page contains info on how to get copies (see below).

Mary Geegh was a missionary to India for 38 years (1924-1962). “God Guides” is a fascinating succession of anecdotes and stories in diary form about the way God guided her throughout her missionary years. Throughout, the indwelling Word works in accord to the written Word to lead, guide, direct her in situation after situation. My copy is marked on nearly every page with the wisdom of this dear saint.

If she had a “method” it would have been, “The first step is to ‘wait’…’be still’…’listen’. Be quiet until His thought comes to our minds…work with notebook and pencil write down the things the Holy Spirit speaks to your mind; determine to obey…”

For the first 400 years of Christianity (as in many parts of the world today), there were no Bibles like we have them with the 66 books, yet Christianity spread to all of the known world. At best, scattered believers might have had portions, and maybe scrolls of some of the OT(?), yet God has always guided His people into all truth.

Even after the canon was established, how many common believers scattered all over the Roman Empire had access to the written Word like we do today? Probably very few, and yet Christianity thrived, even in the midst of all the obstacles. There is something about the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God that has been lost in our intellectual Western mindset.

Many of the believers that we relate to in Ecuador do not read, or at best, barely read with little comprehension. They may not be able to read the written Word, but they have a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ and His Life shines in their life. Their Christian walk is probably very similar to that of early believers who had the Spirit, but did not have ready access to the written Word.

In all these situations where the indwelling Spirit abides, He will not go against the written revealed Word of God. It is an amazing priviledge to have the written Word of God, but when we come right down to it, when we have Jesus, we have THE WORD dwelling within us. The Word within will guide us according to the written Word.

I better stop here before I get myself into things well “over my head” and then have to come up with answers to all the others reading/commenting on this thread!

Marcy (Geegh) Zastrow
PO Box 546
Wausau, WI 54402-0546
Phone: 715-845-4011
Email: marcy@dwave.net

Guy Muse, in the spirit of St. Patrick’s Day, I say:

“BRILLIANT!”

LOL. No baptists will get it.

“What About John 1:1?”

~~~~~~~~~~~

Today, an important part of Bible study is the comparison of translations. Regarding their comparative value, Miles Coverdale (b.1488-d.1568), who produced the first complete printed translation of the Bible into English, wrote: “one translation declareth, openeth and illustrateth another, and … in many cases one is a plain commentary unto another.”

The King James Version translators had also appreciated the work of early translators, for even upon their cover page they explained that their own work had been, “Translated out of the Original Tongues and with the Former Translations Diligently Compared and Revised.”

For many, John 1:1 plainly declares Jesus (the Word) is God. And yet, few are aware of the number of other ways in which hundreds of Biblical Theologians, Scholars and Translators alike have, down thru the centuries, chosen to render this verse – as something other than, “and the Word was God.”

John 1:1 may be the most discussed, explained and/or debated scripture of any in the Bible. After 15 years study, there is soon to be released an Extensive Annotated Bibliography, providing the dedicated student of the Bible a sampling of what has been offered by many, well respected Bible scholars, that is, as to the many appropriate, alternative renditions of this most controversial scripture, John 1:1.

Agape: john1one@earthlink.net

~~~~~~~~~~~

Please visit: http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com
“Good Companion Books” is dedicated to publishing well researched, informative books, on certain key Biblical subjects.

~~~~~~~~~~~

“Guy Muse, in the spirit of St. Patrick’s Day, I say:

“BRILLIANT!”

LOL. No baptists will get it.”

Bryan: I do. (The commercials crack me up)

I LOVE this thread-however it’s late and Bryan is on his way to my church, so I doubt he will be answering.
Back to David’s comment-thanks-but can we go deeper?

After all, the WORD of God-written, is only revealed to one through the grace of God through the power of the Holy Soirit. If not, any reported on CNN could explain anything in the scripture to anyone if they study long enough. My meaning being-it is not intellectually discerned.
Example-I grew up in church, I now remember only incidences of when I ’saw’ or discerning something spiritual going on and even then didn’t know what it was. I heard it all-went through GA’s, but my heart was not set on things above-not until He put that in me-then amazingly I began to understand WHY we sing songs I had sang my entire life, why scriptures said what they said, what Christ meant when he said I was a stranger in this world and on and on, more and more until today and still coming.
I’m reminded of the pearls before swine concept. We can’t explain spiritual things-to an unregenerate heart WITHOUT the Holy Spirit.
It is infact – A Miracle of Mercy (couldnt resist that one )

Alyce Lee,

Bryan just had his old Sunday School class throw a sending off and birthday party for him at his house, so I am still in Fayetteville, doing last minute work on my sermon, preparing to get up at 4 so that we can drive to Sherwood in the morning!

We have found that we actually get more sleep if we stay in our own beds and just get up early. If we get to a hotel room late our kids go nuts, we all get angry, and we sleep poorly. So, if we are traveling to a church within 3 or 4 hours, we like to do it in the morning. Let’s all pray for no flat tires or car troubles!

Alyce,

Just checking in to let you know I’m not “dissing” your question. I’m kind of busy now though, and your question deserves more thought than I can give right now to answer half-way adequately. Hopefully, sometime in the next couple of days I’ll be able to check back in and write a little more.

David, no problem. I am more than willing to wait on you. I have enjoyed this thread.

Finally getting back with a few more thoughts.

I think there are at least 2 different levels of understanding God’s Word: an intellectual level, and a spiritual level. Both have their importance.

For example, it is not a waste of time to study Greek and Hebrew, and biblical hermeneutics, with the intent to get a better grasp on what the Bible literally says. And, being a Christian and being open to the direction of the Holy Spirit, does not necessarily make us better Greek of Hebrew students. In this sense, an unregenerate person is able to “understand” the Bible at a certain level.

But, then there is another level in which a totally illiterate, but, at the same time, totally sold-out Spirit-filled disciple of Jesus will be able to “understand” the Scripture and discern the will of God better than any unregenerate PhD in theology ever will. This is because as Lee alludes to, in the comment above, the “things of the Spirit” are “spiritually discerned.”

Not to say that I agree with everything that Joel Osteen and his father John Osteen teach and taught, but I do like the idea expressed behind the famous “Lakewood Confession”:

“This is my Bible.
I am what it says I am.
I have what it says I have.
I can do what it says I can do.
Today I will be taught the Word of God.
I boldly confess:
My mind is alert,
My heart is receptive.
I will never be the same.
I am about to receive the incorruptible, indestructible, everliving seed of the word of God.

I will never be the same — never, never, never.
I will never be the same.
In Jesus’ name.”

I believe this should be our attitude as believers when we come before God’s Word. Someone who does not have the Holy Spirit will not be able to truly have this attitude. And, as a result, they will be blinded to much of the spiritual truth of the Bible. But, when we approach the Bible with this attitude, God’s Spirit breathes life into our spirit through the Word He already inspired thousands of years ago.

Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit continues to guide us today in ways that are not strictly interpretation of the Bible. As Guy has pointed out, He guided the early believers who did not have access to the entire canon of Scripture, and He still guides illiterate people, and Christians, who, for whatever reason, do not have complete access to the Bible today.

But, He will never ever contradict what is written in the Bible. And the Spirit will never lead us to interpret the Bible in a way that goes against plain common sense sound hermeneutics. Neither can we as believers totally submitted to the Lordship of Christ have an attitude of independence toward God’s revelation in the Bible, as if we were able to understand God’s direction adequately without it. We need the Bible. And we must continually compare and contrast our understanding of what we believe the Spirit is showing us with what a sound interpretation of Holy Scripture really says.

David, I agree with everything you said.
And, I have enjoyed these comments-it seems we, for the most part are listening and willing to learn here.
The bigger problem that we have seemed to have escaped here in this stream is just this: our interpretation of the Scriptures and others interpretations. In times past that meant, the way we as Baptist look at the scriptures, for example ‘baptism, because our sins have been remitted’ and a typical Church of Christ member, seeing a more literal ‘baptism for the remission of sins.’
Today-Baptist disagree with Baptist. Extreme views and dividing us. We recently heard expressed views on ‘can Christains sue?’ I just got the feeling I was reading, not someones intentional look at that scripture, but rather what they thought about the specific incident.
Yes, the leading of the Holy Spirit and scriptures agree…. when will we?

David, great comment. Thank you. I do have a question about it, and perhaps it comes only from my non-seminary trained mind, but you say:

And the Spirit will never lead us to interpret the Bible in a way that goes against plain common sense sound hermeneutics.

I’m not sure I agree. I think walking by faith sometimes defies common sense. Nothing about turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, giving to anyone who asks, selling all you have or those sorts of things make common sense at least not as the world would define it. I also don’t know what sound hermeneutics are and when people start using that term I often feel like Charlie Brown listening to the teacher. I know I’ve never read a verse of scripture that says use sound hermeneutics to read this.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful or cute… I am asking for someone (and especially you) to help me out with this.

[...] response to a recent post, David Rogers, wrote this about the Holy Spirit’s guidance in the midst of biblical [...]