CHARIS SHALOM

Bryan -

Have read your post. Have some comments to add. At work now. Will return this evening to comment.

Bryan –

Have read your post. Have some comments to add. At think now. Will return this evening to comment.

Just early enough to beat Dorcas.

I read with interest both this post and the last. My own take is that the HS does speak to us and guide us. John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit…He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembranc all that I said to you…”

He will 1) teach us all things, 2) bring to remembrance all that I said to you (the Word).

My problem is I still struggle with knowing the voice of the HS and distinguishing it from my own thoughts. Many have told me that as we walk daily with the Shepherd, we will learn to clearly distinguish His voice from those “other voices.”

In our own practice of meeting we seek to discern the Holy Spirit’s guidance through the Word, through prayer, and through prophetic word (which has usually arisen out of prayer and the Scriptures.) I consider myself as one who still has much to learn on the subject, and am open to being taught on this matter.

Guy, thank you for your comment and your vulnerability. Ditto for me. It is a scary area of our faith walk and difficult to understand. But, praise God we do have the Comforter/Helper to aid us.

I think I thought a little bit, as I have an observation or two.

First, your post title is a question. My answer is usually.

Second: I agree with Guy Muse. It’s always difficult to know, but I think it should be. I don’t suppose it took a lot of faith to state what God had carved on the stone tablets, and it takes faith to please God. He said He looks at the heart and at the motives, and we need to look at them when we thing we’ve heard directly from Him.

One thought that invaded my brain a couple years ago was that I was trying to bolster, in my own mind, my ability to discern. I think God told me to stop that .. that I should rely totally on HIS ability to communicate. That sounds like a small idea, but since I incorporated that, it’s made a huge difference in me. So .. if you think you’re able to hear Him, tremble. If you think He can speak so plainly you cannot HELP but hear him, I think you’re solid.

Yes, it’s all written down in the book. But I can’t figure it out. He’s going to have to reveal and illuminate it for me.

Preachers and preaching: all scripture is inspired, but most of it needs to be explained. Even the “Gospel in a nutshell” needs to be explained. For what it says, to be exposed. Like .. what is the “world”. Well, it’s the cosmos (as I recall), the creation. That might mean trees and goats, but the end of the verse says the result of the love was the sacrifice of His Son. And the obvious benefit of that was only for people. Much as I’d like to think that my favorite wandering dachshund and my favorite Wandering Jew will be in heaven, I doubt they will.

A Wandering Jew is a plant, by the way. It was a gift from my brother, who’d converted to Judaism, as a housewarming gift in 1983.

Good thoughts, Bryan. You’re right on. The Holy Spirit speaks in all kinds of ways. Sometimes, we are just not open to Him, or we try and place Him in certain categories. Last I checked, God was bigger than our categories.

What is funny to me, is that people say that God ONLY speaks through the written words of Scripture, yet that very Scripture is full of stories of God speaking in all kinds of ways. So, the very Scripture that people affirm as being authoritative, actually is not, because almost everything that happened in said Scripture happens no longer. That means it is basically irrelevant, no? That position is more than just a little ironic for so-called Biblical Conservatives. But, I digress and leave the field to my soon to appear attackers.

Thank you, Alan. Your comments mean a lot to me because your gift of wisdom is amazing. God definitenly is bigger than the box we try to put Him in.

John 16:13-14 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.”
Why would this be frightening to anyone?
And if the Bible is God’s only way to speak to us, why is it that the Pharisee’s knew the OT and didn’t know the truth?
Why did Peter, a Jew-know the LAW-but when He met the Life-giver and then later was filled with the Spirit-he was a different man!
Why did Paul, A Hebrew among Hebrew’s, a devout Jew and Pharisee, but when He met the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit of God ‘activated his life’ THEN, only THEN he knew the truth.

I was there when Josh made those comments Bryan. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of Josh’s in the midst of the church.

Man without the Holy Spirit are just bones with no breath. Breath on us God.

Oh man, I can’t wait to get home and dig into this a little more. I’ll be back later, I promise.

I can’t wait to see what you dig into! Of course, you were going to write about the heart a long time ago, too.

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of Josh’s in the midst of the church.

Well there’s at least one. But you seem to be using me as a label for some perceived evil in the church and I can’t say I like it much.

To all here, at no point have I questioned anyone’s salvation, though I have been accused of it. And my own is in question…by you. If I did anything, I challenged your pet beliefs–probably spoon fed since nursery school–which is a tough prospect any way you look at it. Should you avoid me for that or deny me fellowship? (And a good many of you are SO fond of posting on other Baptist blogs about the broadness of our SBC tent or who should be ‘allowed’ in the church.) Should you cast aspersions and diatribes in my direction? I have to say that I am far from the fellow in 2 Timothy 3 who breathes sweet nothings. Should you avoid me? Perhaps to surround yourselves with ear ticklers and men who will preach what you want to hear? Men who go about saying ‘Peace’ when there is none, whitewashed tombs full of dead mens bones? Is that what you take me for? A meeter of felt needs and a wearer of soft clothes? Think again brothers and sisters, our God is a consuming fire.

I’d like to thank you all–if not for listening and thinking before typing–for at least proving my point here” in the comments of this very blog that almost any other way of discussing these issues would be better than a donnybrook on a blog.

Josh
“…the word of God is not bound.”
–2 Timothy 2:9

Bryan -

You cut me to the quick. That is why I already posted twice today. I know sometimes I have failed to return to comment when I promised to do so. I am so trying to be a woman of my word and do what I say I will do. The blogging experience has taught me how easy it is to make promises and then break them just because we get busy or make promises we had no need to make in the first place. It is an interesting medium of conversation.

I know you were just teasing me. But as to the heart topic … my heart is sad that I forgot to come back and comment on that post. I want to be a friend that people can take at her word without question.

So, I am home and have had my dinner, and was just checking in to see what other comments there were before I go do my Bible research for my input here. I’ll toss in a load of laundry and get to researching. My comment will still be later this evening because I want to read some of that other book I mentioned to you first, just for background … not because I need it instead of the Holy Spirit to teach me!

Okay … enough with the teaser trailers … my next comment will be on the topic of the post.

In asking for a reference (non-biblical) source to go to in further researching this topic, my pastor recommended that I read “The Scripture Principle” by Clark H. Pinnock. Because Pinnock does a good job of addressing this topic, I will provide everyone with some quotes from Part III. of his book entitled “Sword of the Spirit” and Chapter 7 therein, “Word and Spirit.” The following is from that book:

“The external letter must become an inner Word through the work of the Spirit. We have to avoid both a false objectivity in which revelation is independent of God’s present activity and a false subjectivity in which revelation is swallowed up by human experience and cannot be normative for it. We must lose neither the content of the divine disclosure nor the reality of God speaking to us today. …

It is not that the living Word is different from what is said in the objective biblical text but, rather, that through the Spirit what is said comes alive and becomes contemporary to us. The texts become more than they would be to an unbeliever, who only understands their historical meaning. They take on the character of personal address. … In this way the Bible leaps over the centuries and becomes present and meaningful for us today. The Spirit himself sees to it that the relevance of the ancient Word is seen and ensures that hte Scriptures function as the medium of the Word of God for the church. The real authority of the Bible is not the scholarly exegesis of the text, open only to an elite, but the Word that issues forth when the Spirit takes the Word and renders it the living voice of the Lord. Therefore, it is not a text we can master through techniques but a text that wants to master us.

Not without cause, conservative Christians have been a little fearful to give much room to the subjective and the existential. They have seen what can be done when the Word is subordinated to human subjectivity. But neglecting the subjective side cannot be the answer. It can too easily result in Pharisaic legalism that handles the text in a cold, harsh way and never asks what our Lord is saying to us now through it. It can make us afraid for the fate of the Bible, so that we feel we have to defend it down to the last jot and tittle lest it prove untrue according to some rational standard. It can make us spiritless ourselves and ineffective in reaching those today who are longing for subjective immediacy in faith. Often in fundamentalism there has been a false concentration on the letter and an insensitivity to the illuminating work of the Spirit. Surely, the Spirit is the key to the proper functioning of Biblical authority.

…

Revelation has not ceased. A phase of it has ceased, the phase that provided the gospel and its scriptural witness, but not revelation in every sense. If it had, we could not know Christ as Lord, because we would be left to our own cognitive powers. We have in us “the spirit of revelation,” which causes the letter of the Bible to become charged with life and to become the living voice of God to us. The Spirit did not withdraw from the church after the canon was completed but remains in the church speaking through the Scriptures, revealing Christ to us afresh. … Thus the Bible is an instrument or tool of the Spirit to teach and shape us … Without both the Word and the Spirit we cannot do sound, nourishing theology. Scripture is a means of grace by which God’s Word continues to come to us. It is not so much a static collection of timeless oracles as it is the place to stand when one wants to be in God’s presence and learn of him. Through the Bible we can orient ourselves to the objective revelation that has been given and through the Spirit, enter into it personally and dynamically.”

Pinnock goes on to give three functions of the Spirit in relation to the Scriptures … the Spirit helps us recognize the scriptures (our eyes open as new believers), interpret the scriptures (the verses about teaching us all things), and apply the scriptures.

If y’all are more interested in this topic you should read this book. I know I quoted a lot here for this comment, and there was much more to chew on in just the one chapter I read.

Look at me, I’m doing a Bryan Riley and commenting in triplicate, must be an attorney thing …

I just realized I gave my source material but didn’t really go into or discuss any of your discussion questions. I also noticed there were many more comments on the prior post on this since the last time I read them. So that will be my project for tomorrow, to catch up reading those, then come back here with some of my own insight (and not just that of some other scholar) as to your specific questions you have posed. With that I’ll say good night to all.

Bryan: Your title is really good because it hits the problem square on the head. I do think many are afraid of the HS. I think it’s the result of bad theology such as the Benny Hinn’s. I don’t think fear of the HS was always a part of the Christian thought reading history.

I have some very personal reasons why I believe the HS is continuing to work strongly today.

I agree with all who have posted and Bob, your first comment cracked me up. I believe the Holy Spirit to do all these things. It’s why I believe that Dwight McKissic, Jerry Rankin have a legitimate prayer language. I see how God worked in scripture and believe that has not changed.

Unfortunately, josh, your comment that you posted yesterday at 5, i didn’t see until this morning. You have the honor of being the first comment I’ve ever had in moderation and I simply didn’t see it as I told you in an email response this morning. Thank you for taking time to email me personally.

Josh, I haven’t yet talked with Alyce about her comment, but I am sure she didn’t mean it personally. However, I know if it had said, unfortunately there are a lot of Bryan’s in the church today, I would have been hurt and taken it personally. So, I am sorry. Words can and do hurt. I hope that we can all reconcile this.

Honestly, I read her comment, and since it wasn’t about me, I didn’t see the potential harm. Isn’t that just like us? That is my insensitivity. I should have been more compassionate and asked sooner. I truly am sorry.

As to the issues at discussion, I think we are missing each other some. Your comment contains some harsh words in it (nursery school parts of your comment), but clearly those came after you felt lambasted. Just so you know, I think everyone who has commented here was “raised” baptist. I could be wrong. But, just because someone believes that God is still speaking today does not mean they are teaching that such is a requirement of salvation or that one must dance naked in the streets.

dance naked in the streets

Well thats a relief. And thanks for stopping by the Unbound blog to clear this up.

May the Lord bless you richly in your endeavors to serve and please him and may he be truly glorified by what you do.

Josh
“…the word of God is not bound.”
–2 Timothy 2:9

Debbie, thanks for stopping by! Now if we could just get Pastor McKissic to add some of his thoughts to these posts, I think we could all be edified!

Josh, thank you. I am sorry for the angst I know you felt. Just as I commented at your blog just now, I am off to clean my garage and I pray that God will continue to clean out our spiritual and emotional garages, where we store so much junk. May we all be more open and honest in our communications. You did well here. If you had just stewed and sniped at those you thought were holding you in bad repute, we may have never cleared this up; instead, you emailed me and were honest about how it made you feel. I appreciate that. That is how we should be more often in life.

Bob,

That might mean trees and goats, but the end of the verse says the result of the love was the sacrifice of His Son. And the obvious benefit of that was only for people.

Really, just people?

I think Scripture teaches He’s got the whole of creation in view here. I read that…;)

Great comment, Kevin. Yes, God redeems all of creation!

Dorcas,

Those Pinnock quotes are excellent and at the heart of how I understand what Bryan has been saying. They are certainly reflective of what I have said (on the previous post).

Now, the problem is that you and I are sitting around reading/quoting/agreeing with Clark Pinnock and reading/quoting/agreeing with an Open Theist can end up ruining an otherwise unsullied reputation.

Paul -

When loaned the book, I was also warned that not everything Clark Pinnock has written or said since may be as valid. That is where the discernment of the Spirit also comes into play.

As to reputation in Blog Town … I’ll take my chances.

To answer your question, yes. I think we’re afraid of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has such authority and conviction, and that may require us to make changes in order to be in the center of His will, instead of already thinking that we are.

I believe the Bible is the written Word of God, and that discerning between the Holy Spirit and our own thoughts or those of someone else is a matter of consistency with what the scripture teaches. But with regard to specific things in my own life, well, we’re afraid of individuality, too. I think, in a lot of cases, we don’t want to be moved too far from where we are (translated: God might call me to the mission field and I’m already comfortable where I am, or God might actually want me to invest in and minister to people that are different and I might experience some rejection). In other words, we’d rather go on our own, thank you, so that we won’t get in over our heads.

Then, too, we wrap a lot of our own identity up in things that seem to matter more to us than they do to God. Those denominational labels we wear sometimes keep us from being open to things that we’re “not supposed” to know because of where we go to church.

Dare I suggest that personal pride can also be involved?

Bryan,

FWIW, I think all the questions you ask in your post are very valid, and indeed help to get to the root of this matter.

David, it’s worth a lot coming from you. And, I think I”ve told you this before. It’s not because I associate you with any famous family members (because I didn’t know the connection for a long time); rather, it is because you are consistently a humble and wise voice on the blogosphere. Thank you for commenting.

Question 1:
“Here’s what I really don’t understand, if the Holy Spirit does nothing but point us to the Word and we need nothing but the Word, then why do we listen to preaching? What do preachers do? Shouldn’t they just read the Word and say nothing else?”

Bryan — wow, do you realize what you just asked? The Word is Jesus (John 1:1). So let me rephrase your question: If the Holy Spirit does nothing but point us to Jesus, and we need nothing but Jesus, then why do we listen to preaching? Well, because preachers teach us the Bible, the Word, about Jesus … that is what they do. I am not saying we need ONLY the Word and not the Spirit, that is like saying we need Jesus, but not God the Father or the Holy Spirit. My point in the prior post is that the Spirit directs us to Jesus. I know the Trinity is one of those concepts that sometimes we struggle to get our minds around, so I’m not sure exactly why it is so, but it is … Jesus gets the focus, and the Spirit indwells us to send our focus that way. So when pastors preach the scriptures, and as the Spirit fills them and gives them the message to give to us, the focus is on the Bible, the written word, which is the divine revelation from the voice of God, the messenger come to earth in human form and yet still God … Jesus.

Question 2:
“Why would we need to pray?”

I often ask myself this question. One answer I found is in 2 Corinthians 1:11 where it says that people praying helped. I don’t understand how or why prayer helps, especially when God’s plan cannot be thwarted and so I don’t understand how we can change things. But I believe the scriptures, and that verse said that the people were helping by praying, so I believe it. Yet I don’t think prayer is about changing things really, as seen in that verse in Corinthians, we pray, so when God answers prayer, we can give the glory to God. So we pray to bring God glory. Also, prayer is simply talking to God. And God is love. God loves us. Why wouldn’t we want to talk to the one we love and who loves us more than any other. Why would we need to pray? As an act of love toward God. I do think that in these moments of prayer God also speaks to us through the indwelling of the Spirit.

Question 3:
“And, how are we supposed to live by the Spirit or be filled with the Spirit?”

Your question almost implies that it is something that we have to muster up. But this one is all about God’s grace. Fact of the matter is that this one is outside of our control. Galatians 2:20a says “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ that liveth in me…” When Jesus sent the Comforter to us as believers, the Spirit indwells our lives. So yes, in some way we need our human mind to be tuned in to what the Spirit is doing within us. Is this what prayer is for? To some extent, but I know the Spirit can speak to me even when I am not praying.

Questions 4 & 5:
“Does it just mean that we should be great students of His Word and memorize as much of it as possible and that by so doing we are filled with the Spirit? Does that mean that great faith and great Christianity is reserved for those who are more intelligent than others and who can better understand the letter of the Word?”

Okay, this goes back to what I was saying about the Spirit teaching us all things. I think there is great value in memorization of scripture. Because the Spirit can bring it to our remembrance if we have learned it. But I do not think you are questioning whether or not hiding God’s word in our heart is a good idea. The Bible says that God can make the foolish wise and the wise as fools. So I don’t think spirituality and intelligence are directly correlated. However, I do think that some people have gone with experiential Christianity as a way to shortcut really becoming disciples and students of the Word, just as some others focus on the Word to the point of becoming deaf to the Spirit’s call on their lives. There must be a middle ground. I really think this goes back to the importance of understanding the Trinity and the nature of God in the three persons. Father, Son and Spirit. None can be separated from the other, and yet the Bible seems clear that they each have unique roles. But at the same time He is one God. Wow, isn’t it amazing that the God of the universe loves us so much that he even gives us the slightest of intellect to try to begin to comprehend such a topic as his very nature and being.

Questions 6-8:
“And, does this mean that I and millions of others who believe that God speaks to them on a personal level are deceived? Whose voice are we hearing? If we are deceived would those who would argue what Josh has presented say we are not believers?”

Bryan, I believe God speaks to us today. I have listened to Pastor Ben preach a sermon, and I have become attuned to the transition that happens when the Spirit takes hold and drives home a point that is being made. Words almost fail me to describe it. My attention is tuned, I catch a word or phrase that speaks to something in my life, I find myself sitting on the edge of my seat or leaning forward. I am looking at the pastor, and yet not, it is like I have almost forgotten he is standing there speaking, while he is still preaching, I can tell that I am being taught something more than just simply words. If I spoke to others after the service and asked them what they learned from the sermon, the answers might simply be the main points of the message or an interesting verse, but if there were two of us who exclaimed “it felt like the preacher was preaching directly to me!” and we discussed it, we might find the Holy Spirit was touching very different parts of each of our lives through the same message. So yes, I believe God does speak to us on a personal level. However, the pastor would have been preaching from the scriptures, so again, what I might be taught during the sermon would be of Biblical application. The Spirit points to Jesus.

Whose voice are we hearing? Hopefully it is the Spirit within us. Sometimes it is our own hopefulness that God will affirm what we humanly want to do ourselves. I have had to face this question head on as I consider the possibility of if I will be married, and if so, to whom. This is the one big question that most people face I suppose where we desperately want to know we are in God’s will. But what should I do when I am sure that the Spirit is telling me a certain man is the one I am to marry? Is this my wishful thinking? Should I go and tell the man that God told me he was supposed to marry me? Surely not. So you see in my hypothetical here, that it is easy to say “God gave me a message” when it may be that I just want to have things my way. Or it could actually be the Spirit telling me something. And what if I think I sense the call to be single for my whole life so I can focus myself more fully on God? And then my friends just tell me I am being fatalistic and the right man will come along one day. After all, God wouldn’t have created me with such a capacity to love except that he would have a man out there for me … right? So you see even in this one matter it is hard to know mere human discernment from the Spirit’s leading. That is why I think it important that we be grounded in scripture first and foremost. Because then when I get confused as to whose voice I am hearing, I can go back to “Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength.” And I know if I do that, that I will be in God’s will and needn’t worry so much about sorting out all those other details right this minute.

I believe the Spirit will speak to us, to teach us, comfort us, guide us, but I believe it is done through our study of scriptures and hearing the Word preached. If the Spirit gives us specific direction for our lives, I think it must be verified by wise counsel and not go against the truths of scripture. I would never tell someone else that their spiritual experience is wrong just because I have not experienced God in the same way, unless it was also inaccurate according to scriptures. I think it wise to include Bible study into one’s prayer time. To go to God with his love letter in hand, to pray the scriptures, perhaps a good place to start would be praying through the Psalms, to read the Word, focus on Jesus, call on the loving God, the Father, and ask the Spirit to take over our lives so that we truly die to self. In the end, I think it is about worshiping, loving, and praising God in the fullness of who he is … Father, Son and Spirit. If we do this … we will find our feet on solid ground.

*I hope you don’t mind this very long comment. I have not yet developed the skill of saying everything I think in five words or less.*

Dorcas, I love your long comment and you taking the time to answer my questions. But, I am unsure about whether you got the point of my questions. They are all being asked of the person who would say that the only revelation today for a Christian is found in the written Word of God.

Nothing you have said in response to the questions if they were just asked in general is inconsistent with my own thoughts for the most part; however, for example, when I say why listen to preaching, what I am referring to is why should we listen to anyone talk about the bible or any other subject if the only revelation of God today is from God’s word itself. All we have to do is read the bible to get revelation if you start with the above assumption. And, therefore, preaching, unless just a straight reading of text from the Word, cannot claim any authority from God.

I am interested in your answer on prayer because I see nothing in that answer about listening. And, I have to wonder if because you see revelation as almost entirely from the scripture alone you don’t think of prayer as listening or if you just didn’t mention that in the above answer.

Let me ask you this, Dorcas: When the readers of John read his gospel and he wrote that Jesus was the logos, did they have the written bible we have today and do you think they read that as the bible as we have it today? Even harder question, assuming John preached on his own gospel, do you think he said: when I say Jesus is the logos, I am saying that Jesus is these 66 books of the what will one day be called the Holy Bible? Same questions of when Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16 or any other verse that refers to the word.

As we discussed previously, God clearly can have much deeper intent than any individual author did when writing, but how do you think the first readers read it, or the first sermons preached it?

Bryan -

I’ll address your questions in reverse order, as to the written Bible the people had back in the day, to the one we have today, and what the “logos” meant, I must admit I have not studied this topic and have no independent knowledge of it. However, this was the other question you had also e-mailed to me and why Pastor Ben chose the particular book of Pinnock’s to loan me, the first Part of the book is entitled “The Word of God” and the First chapter is entitled “Pattern of Revelation.” So far I have only read the chapter on the Word and the Spirit because that was the primary focus of your post. The best I can do is to come back later with more quotes from Pinnock after I read it, but as you didn’t really respond to the prior quotes I posted from that book, I am not sure that would be of interest to you.

As to the matter of prayer and listening. I must admit that I have not found it to be that prayer and God speaking to me go directly hand in hand for my life. I once thought this a deficiency of my prayer life, but now I am just not so sure. When I pray, I speak to God as if he were right there in the room, I’ll admit I use the ACTS model often, or just tell God what is going on in my life as I would tell a close, dear friend. I know many people say that part of their prayer time is just pausing to hear from God, but I have often struggled with that and find that my mind gets distracted, starts to wander or I fall asleep. However, when I am driving in my truck, or at work in the middle of the afternoon, or listening to a sermon, I will feel a real sense of God’s presence in that moment when I wasn’t even really praying. Like this afternoon when I struggled to hold back tears at the realization of God’s constant presence in my life when just a few moments earlier I had been typing a legal document. I don’t know why it is, but in my experience God just talks to me when he wants to, and I have found it often is not at the same time when I am stopping to pray to him consciously.

As a side note, this fact has me very curious about the meaning of “pray without ceasing” and how it ties in to that.

Well, I have a lot to get to this weekend. It has been a good discussion. Thanks for such an interesting set of blog posts to get me thinking more about God. After all, there is no better topic to be discussing.

Agreed, Dorcas, He is and He is the best topic to discuss.

I suppose I had nothing to say about Pinnock because it seemed ironic, as I think you hinted, that you would be pulling from a human author to talk about the import of the Bible. This new question goes a little further than the first one. I appreciate all of your comments.

Bryan-
Good stuff-
I have been raised in a S Baptist Church. I was never taught how to listen to the holy spirit. I was just told to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Most of my spiritual growth came from reading the word as a young teenager and having the words pop off the page at me. Not from great sermons or youth pastors, and sadly not from a dear mentor.
I just dedicated my life to Christ and knowing him as best I knew how. I remember talking to God and feeling like he was speaking to me in his still small voice. This happens most in hard times, or lonely times. When he is all we have to lean on. I believe there is a connection between the phrase “personal relationship with Jesus” and hearing his voice and obeying it. He says in John, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me (10:27).”

I do think there is a problem today. Too many of us depend on our “Pastor” or a book or the latest theology or knowledge. We no longer have to go through a mediator- Christ is our mediator. This goes along with the infant analogy and drinking milk. We must teach new disciples to read the word, hear the voice of God and obey it. It is more important to obey than anything else. Every Church gathering should be a commissioning service to send us out as kingdom laborers. What is the point of sitting and soaking if we aren’t going to seek first His Kingdom. I drive through DFW and I see so many little “Kingdoms” that have been set up on this earth. I question if this is really what Christ was asking us to do? I am growing in these areas- and it is changing my life and my perspective- I want to learn to distinguish his voice more clearly- but more importantly i want to step out in obedience in what i hear.
Good stuff,
Beth B

Wow, Beth, I like what you have written. I worry that we have let fear of what seems like craziness or what is human fakery, based on our own understanding, anesthetize our ability to experience God in our lives. And, given much of what God has been doing in Tara and my lives, I know we weren’t living in His reality in the past.

Thank you for adding your voice here.

Bryan,

Sorry I’ve missed most of this conversation over the past couple of posts. I finally read over most of it, and it has been enlightening.

I definitely believe that God speaks and guides, but I am moving towards Josh’s camp a bit. What I mean by that, is that I see people get paralyzed so much because they don’t think God told them to move, or because they think that God said something, and things are not working out how they thought they would. God speaks through the Word, and if we are not willing to obey that, then we need to quit waiting for other “words” from the Lord.

But, I still have to believe that God speaks, since so much of the Bible contains God speaking to people, and I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where it says He will stop. So, because I believe the Bible, I have to be open to hear God’s voice in all kinds of ways. I’ll have a post on this later this week, maybe tomorrow entitled, “Why the Pharisees Killed Jesus.” Sorry for the plug.

Dorcas, I know what John 1 says, but Jesus is a person, not a book, although the Bible is holy and is the Word of God. Yes, He is the Word of God, but not in the way that we think with a bound book that we use as we see fit. Jesus was the Logos, the Divine Reason behind everything. Everything that God did, he did through Jesus. He is the fullness of the Deity. I have the utmost respect for the Bible as the inerrant, infallible, total revelation from God, but Jesus Himself said that, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” John 5:39-40. So, Jesus Himself is differentiating Himself from the Scriptures. I think that you can do that without diminshing either Christ or the Bible.

Alan and others, I think I need to do another post, because I don’t find it paralyzing at all to listen to God’s voice. In fact, I find it liberating and more easy to make decisions. So, I’m wondering what the disconnect is for some as to what I’ve written and what they think I’ve written.

Here is why I say it isn’t a brain/decision freeze to listen for God’s voice. I believe God is talking always; Our shepherd’s voice is letting us know He is there and guiding us. So, it isn’t so much about waiting for God to speak, it is praying that our ears will be opened and that we will be wise, filled with His spirit, and rest in knowing that He is guiding us.

Sometimes He will tell us to wait, and then we must. But many times it is one of those things where I am affirmed as I go. Scripture becomes the standard against which all such affirmations must measure, but God speaks nonetheless.

Just Sunday, right before I preached, I was becoming nervous without even realizing it. My son Tanner had taken my hand and he looked up at me and said, “Dad, you are nervous; your hands are cold. Don’t be nervous.” As He said it, God reminded me of 2 Timothy 1:7, which also happens to be Tanner’s life verse. And, then he just a moment later handed me a little note that said “I love you.” All of that was God speaking to me. And it fit with the standard of scripture. No freezing there. Just rest, peace, joy, love. My heart was ready to hear that message. So I did.

Also, Alan, a key part of your comment is this: because things aren’t working out as they thought they would. Well, that’s what they get for thinking so much. God’s voice isn’t always reasonable, as reasonable is defined in the world.

I wholeheartedly agree God speaks through His word and we shouldn’t wait around for other words, but we also must pray and listen. We must be still and know. We must rest in Him. We must wait on the Lord. We must worship.

Bryan,

I agree with you completely. I don’t have much problem with it either. I wholeheartedly recommend for people to listen for God’s leadership and His guidance through Scripture and in addition to Scripture, but not in conflict with it. There is not a thing that you said that I disagree with.

I just think that some folks find it difficult to really know if it is God or them. That doesn’t mean that we say God doesn’t speak, it means that we help them listen. One sure way to do that, is to bring them back to the Word and help them obey all that is clear in Scripture. Then, we teach them how to worship, pray, and listen. At one point, you said that legalism might be a problem for people, and I think that you are absolutely right. They are so afraid of doing something wrong, that they freeze up. So, understanding grace and what it means to walk in the Spirit is important. Basically, we need to pastor and teach people, and that is something that we don’t like to spend much time doing as Baptists, I’m afraid.

But, we should.

I wasn’t saying that Jesus was the Bible as in the actual book of written pages. The scriptures are divinely inspired. Therefore, the Word of God (the Bible) is the Voice of God … this voice of God in human form was Jesus. Therefore, not only is the Bible centrally about Jesus and pointing us to Jesus in all its parts, but it is also from Jesus … divine words. The verses in the Bible talking about the Holy Spirit, that I previously gave the references for on the prior post here on the subject, say that the Spirit points us to Jesus and not himself. So if the Bible is from Jesus and about Jesus, and the Spirit’s role is to point us to Jesus, I was trying to explain that as I understand it, the primary information and knowledge that we will get on God’s will and how to function in the world will come from the Word of God … the Bible. I hope that clarifies my point. I do believe that the Holy Spirit indwells us and helps us understand the Word and teaches us what we need to know to grow in godliness.

I am still unsure how to tell if the Spirit is guiding me in decision making. Especially big decisions like what college to attend, what house to buy, and eventually whom to marry. It often seems to me that I assume the “thing that fell together” was the one God had planned. However, I think this goes more to my theology that nothing can thwart God’s plan so if it is happening, he must have planned it, rather than a confidence that the Spirit told me to do one thing versus the other.

I am especially nervous to figure this out and understand it with regards to the idea of marriage. With the prevalence of divorce in today’s day and age, I really don’t want to mess up that decision, and I find in that way I do feel a little bit paralyzed with the fear of decision. I almost try to make myself believe that God intended for me to be single for life, not out of some great confidence that the Spirit told me this, but it almost feels safer somehow. I don’t want to be considered an old maid, but if I could go around with holy words saying “well, God talked to me one day and told me he had set me apart to be single for life” well at least I would have something to tell people. Yet on the other hand, I would like to be married someday too, in spite of the fear. So I know for myself I have a hard time still discerning the Spirit’s direction and my own thoughts on justifying or rationalizing my life, even in the positive things.

It is when I get all confused on these matters, that I find it wise to not try to imagine up what the Spirit is supposedly telling me in my brain, and just go back to the scriptures and focus on that for awhile. I’m not saying the Spirit doesn’t speak to our hearts, I’m just saying we need to be careful not to make stuff up to suit our own desires, fears or ambitions. If we are not sure if it is from God or our own selves, then it is time to get back to the Word and wait for the Lord to be crystal clear on it where we know with confidence it is him.

I wonder if as Christians, who have the mind of Christ, who are new creations, who are filled with the Holy spirit, if we should stop wondering if we are making stuff up to suit our own desires, fears or ambitions, and live in the reality of His kingdom now, and that if it isn’t in conflict with the written Word move ahead with the confidence that it is from God.

Note: I am wondering. Not Stating. Reactions to that wonder?

Dorcas, I didn’t know if you were saying that or not, but I think a lot of people think that because they are taught that Jesus is the Word. And, for most, including me most of my life, the Word was the 66 books in my bible.

I still really would like to hear someone who has studied it talk about the meaning, from their perspective, of the use of the word, word of God, throughout the bible.

Alan, good words. We all need to be discipled and make disciples. I just don’t think that because some may freeze up worrying that we should scare them away from listening for the voice of God. Frankly, I’m scared to live like I used to anymore and definitely pray for God’s grace to keep me drawing nearer to Him and to keep opening my spiritual eyes and ears more and more every day.

Bryan, you said, “I just don’t think that because some may freeze up worrying that we should scare them away from listening for the voice of God. ”

I don’t either. Please read what I’m saying. I am just saying that it is an issue that needs to be incorporated into our teaching and discipleship. Some folks respond to these abuses and run the other direction. Other people just throw the doors wide open to any and every voice, and amazing confusion results. I’m not advocating either. I DO think that God speaks to our hearts, separate, but never in contrast to the Bible. The Bible is the objective rule by which we judge our subjective relationship with God. It is a gift from Him to guide and illuminate our very active relationship with Him. I just think that as apostles (missionaries), prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers, we need to help people learn how to discern God’s voice, how to obey God’s Word, and how to follow the voice of the Shepherd. It comes more easily for some, but other folks struggle with it, and in pastoral ministry I have seen that. You don’t throw out the truth, but you do help people learn how to apply it and live it out. There is just very little teaching or guidance on hearing the voice of God today, and all kinds of problems result.

Again, don’t throw away the teaching, just help apply it to people’s lives so they walk rightly. That is rarely done, either because of fear, ignorance, energy, or time.

Alan,

This is a great quote from you, “The Bible is the objective rule by which we judge our subjective relationship with God.” I’ll have to remember that one!

Yes, Alan, Guy, that’s what I mean by the bible is our standard. Perfect! Good stuff!

Our plumb line!

Okay, this has been a fun discussion. I think we have come full circle because the point about objective and subjective was in the quote I gave five days ago from Pinnock. Of course, I suppose Alan said it in plain English.

Thanks for stretching my brain and challenging me to grow in my faith guys.

But that still leaves the everyday decisions of life to something. And, with the Holy Spirit, I believe we have a guide and comforter. And I believe God’s voice keeps speaking and speaking and guiding and directing. I know that my walk has become so much more comforting and anxiety free as I begin to lay all my decisions at my feet.

People want to say… Oh no, you’re crazy. How could you ever make a decision. I think it is better to turn all my anxious thoughts into prayers. I spend as much time thinking as I ever would praying about things, so why not spend more time in conversation with the love of my life.

Bryan I think you’ve hit on something there–simply that it works when Christians live and do within the bounds of scripture. I’m going to say that God will bless that every time.

Josh
“…the word of God is not bound.”
–2 Timothy 2:9

Thanks, Josh. I was wondering if you had some more to add to the latest post?